Immigration: Justice and Mercy | 11-09-26

[00:00:04] Broadcasting live from atop the Rocky Mountains, the crossroads of the West. You are listening to the Liberty Roundtable Radio Talk Show. Does the government work for us or do we work for the government? They're taxing us into oblivion in secret and there's a brotherhood. A musical, we'll tell you all about it.

[00:00:29] Happy to have you along my fellow Americans. Sam Bushman live, hard-hitting news and networks refused to use. No doubt starts now. Hope you had an absolutely fantastic weekend. Lowell Nelson, CampaignForLiberty.org with me. And he got to visit Ken Cromar in prison. Ken gets hopefully to a halfway house in 23 days and counting. I think it's 22 days now. So we'll welcome him back, bring him back into society. Hopefully he can return to being a filmmaker where he belongs instead of in prison.

[00:00:58] Seems like the criminals go free and the good guys get to go to jail. Lowell? Yeah, too often that's the case. I really did enjoy my visit with him. We had a heart-to-heart talk. You know, seems like a brother from a different mother can and I share some pretty mutual feelings of, you know, of respect and admiration for each other.

[00:01:21] I'm excited to see him get back into filmmaking. In fact, he shared with me some ideas of films that he's sketched out in his mind while he's been there. And he's looking forward to the opportunity to get back into that business and make some really great films. Some films that will make you think and, you know, give you pause and really wonder where we are as a country and what we can do about restoring this grand old republic.

[00:01:49] That's what we need to do. And he's going to help make that happen from a filmmaker's perspective. It's pretty exciting. His website, miraclesingodwetrust.com. Ken's a dear friend. We're like-minded in the things that matter most. He's a believer in God, family and country without a doubt. He's been true to his cause. It's just sad, though, that we decide guys like him belong behind bars and we let criminal aliens run around free. It's insanity, lol.

[00:02:18] Yeah, that's true. He has learned, you know, he's a fellow that makes lemonade out of lemons. Like many of us probably would do, he is kind of like Joseph in Egypt, right? Thrown into Pharaoh's prison and he comes out on top. Basically, he's a model prisoner. He helps everybody. He talks to people, helps, you know, pick up the downtrodden and encourage the sad hearts.

[00:02:46] There's a lot of people in there, he said, that don't ever, ever get any visitors, let alone, you know, mail and things like that. They just, they get in there and they're forgotten by, you know, people who should love them, their families and others and their friends. And so he is blessed in many ways, but he's also a great blessing to the people there in his prison camp. You know, they're going to miss him when he leaves.

[00:03:11] They're going to miss him sorely because he has been a great help to many, many of the inmates there. Sam, you'd be proud of him. I'm proud of him. I'm sure his father in heaven is proud of him, too, for spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, even though he's been, you know, cooped up in prison for almost four years. It's too far and I don't have the money to visit him, but we do talk on the phone from prison quite a bit. We do keep in touch and I'm doing all that I can to help him from here.

[00:03:38] And as soon as he gets out, I will be going to visit him as soon as he gets to Salt Lake City. So our prayers are with Ken Cromar wrongfully put in prison, in my humble opinion, to which I'm entitled. Even if you say he's guilty of the crimes they claim he's guilty of, which I disagree with completely as well. A guy like that belongs at most with an ankle monitor. There's no threat to society of any kind. Why should we all pay for him to be there for four years when he could be making a living and contributing to society, etc.?

[00:04:06] It just makes no sense to me, Lowell, how we take someone like Tina Peters, a grandma, or someone like Ken Cromar, this peaceful gentleman. And, you know, these people don't belong in prison no matter what we say. It's just not – we need to really revisit our prison system. And I hope that Donald Trump would be the one to get that done. Time is slipping away quickly, though, but we pray for an opportunity, myself and Constitutional Sheriff Richard Mack and others,

[00:04:32] to sit down and talk about prison reform to where it's like, hey, these people that aren't violent, aren't a dangerous society, why are they even there? I mean, you know, people that commit, say, financial crimes, hey, restrict their ability to do those things again, put them on an ankle monitor, have them make a living for themselves and their families still. I don't see any point in putting these people in prison at all. It's just too expensive with the taxpayer, and it makes no sense whatsoever, Lowell. Well, there is a prison industry, unfortunately.

[00:05:00] Just like there's a, you know, military, industrial, congressional complex going on, there's a Bureau of Prisons complex. It's a way for the government to employ lots of people, I guess, and they benefit. I mean, some prisons get privatized, and it becomes a moneymaker for them. The more people you put in prison, the more money they make. You know, it's kind of like that musical where, what, the Newsies?

[00:05:29] Yeah, Newsies, where Jack is thrown in jail, and the warden, I guess, gets kickbacks for, or the judge gets kickbacks, you know, for everybody he throws in prison, right? I mean, we've got that going on today, unfortunately. It is a corrupt system. It's insidious, very similar to some of the other bad, cyclical systems that we've got going on in this country.

[00:05:55] And we just need good people to stand up everywhere and stand up for righteousness, for truth, for ethics, for transparency. And, you know, we'd live in a different society, a better world, if more people would be kind to their brother and be honest with each other and not try to, you know, not be so greedy that they're just out for the buck or greedy for power. You know, the greed for money and greed for power is what brings so much evil into this world

[00:06:25] by people who are otherwise, you know, normal, natural, common people. We just need more morality, Sam. Maybe we just need more musicals, Lowell. Maybe that's what we need. That could be. You know, this musical that I saw with my wife a few days ago, it's called The Brotherhood, a cinematic musical. It was made just this year, produced, it came out just like a couple of weeks ago. So it's brand new, hot off the press. It's called Brotherhood.

[00:06:55] Not to be confused with, you know, if you do a search for Brotherhood, you'll turn up a number of hits on the Internet. One of the hits is a TV series that began, you know, five or six years ago. That's not this one. This one came out this year, 2026, Brotherhood. And it's a story of two next-door neighbors, John and his family, white U.S. citizens, and Fabian, a Mexican immigrant with his family.

[00:07:21] And, you know, it's a story basically that is repeated over and over thousands of times by so many other Mexican immigrants. And so the filmmakers, you know, put this together. It could have been a documentary. It's a story. But because they put it into a musical, it really packs an emotional punch that you wouldn't have gotten. You know, a typical documentary where they just, you know, talk about facts and figures

[00:07:50] and show you various conditions. But because it's real-life families that are, you know, struggling with the system, struggling with immigration, struggling with ICE and the threat of deportation, it really tubs at your heartstrings. And, you know, at first I thought, oh, man, this is going to be a, you know, a big advertisement for, you know, going easy on illegals, right? Let them come in. That's what I thought it was going to be at first.

[00:08:18] But I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't that, nor was it just a hardcore, you know, kick-the-bums-out type of film either. It pushed neither of those messages, but instead it pushed a message of understanding that our immigration system is sadly sorely lacking. I mean, it's broken. It is, no doubt about it.

[00:08:43] By the way, the musician, one of the members of the band of a band called Gentry, was the star of the show. His name is Casey Elliott, does a great job, fantastic singer. So no doubt it was a musical. And it reminds me of the immigration plan I wrote, Lowell. I don't know if you know, if you remember about me writing this, but I wrote an immigration plan. It's called the Mercy and Justice Immigration Plan. And the idea is, you know, everybody has a hard time knowing what to do with the, you know,

[00:09:13] the illegals. And some say kick them all out. And some say, no, you got to be gentle. And I think the mercy and justice plan of the Savior really gives us the pattern for this. If you're going to be a hardcore criminal and you're a rapist or a murderer, you know what? We need hardcore justice for you because we need to protect society. That's government's primary responsibility is to protect our lives, liberty, and property. So fine. But on the mercy side, if you're a DACA child or you're somebody who came here as a little kid,

[00:09:40] the no fault of your own, and you grew up and really all you know is really America, you don't even know any other country, and you're not a criminal of any kind, and you're willing to work or you've got a job and you've got, you know, a company that will vouch for you and say, no, this is one of the good ones, then we need to roll out the mercy plan for you. And it seems to me that we start there, and then we just slowly but surely work our way to the middle. And the easy cases are the hardcore criminals and the good guys,

[00:10:08] and you make big swaths of solutions. You don't grant amnesty to anybody, but you do say, hey, you were here in this country illegally for a certain number of time. There is going to be a fine because you received benefits of living here, you know, freely and everything. But we'll put together a whatever, depending on how many years and how you've behaved, and maybe your employer can, you know, take care of some of that for you. And there's ways forward that are productive and valuable. And then we work our way to the harder cases. As we get to the middle, the cases get harder for mercy and justice.

[00:10:38] And maybe we say things like if you, you know, put your name on the record, give us your whole story willingly without a fight, you know, then you're going to get some points. If you are willing to, you know, have a job and an employer verify for you, or you, you know, can show that you haven't had criminal activity. You know, we can create all kinds of things that can put you in a situation where we will be honorable and fair with you. Now, if you're a hardcore criminal, we're going to go after you hard, so you better leave the country. But if you're a good, honest person, and you just want a chance to serve us

[00:11:08] or a chance to become an American citizen, we won't give you amnesty because that's just too easy. But we will put a plan together that has mercy and justice at the center of it. Anyway, I might be going off too much on this, but I really believe that something can happen with this. And the reason I'm spending so much time is I've written a plan. Others have written plans. But right now, President Trump says, hey, maybe I've been too hard and I'm willing to work with the Democrats. Maybe this is the key issue that we can actually have kindness and love and patience.

[00:11:37] And maybe we can move the ball forward on something of value out of this massive loss we've had. Maybe there's a silver lining, Lowell. Yeah, that's encouraging news, encouraging note on this. And I'm glad that you spent some time on this because I wanted to understand where you would come down on this issue. I think it is complex. It's a complex problem.

[00:12:04] And I haven't given it a lot of thought because, you know, I've been focused on other issues which I felt were more important, like election integrity. But illegal immigration, it definitely is an issue. And I appreciate your having thought about this and your having put on paper this Justice and Mercy plan. I vaguely remember that from several years ago. I think we talked about it then.

[00:12:31] And I will see if I can find that and read that. I can resend it to you, but the headline or the title of my presentation on this is called Balancing Justice and Mercy for Immigration Reform. And I really think that's what we need is a healthy balance and realize that, hey, you know, here's the question for you. And I think it starts with honestly, honestly answering this question. If you were in a country where it was dangerous

[00:12:59] and you wanted a better life for your family or maybe there wasn't food or whatever legitimate reasons, would you come into the country illegally for a better life, Lowell? Well, yeah, I think I would. See, and I would too. And that's where it starts. So are you a criminal for that? See, I understand that it's against the law. But remember, we have fully informed juries for the very reason that sometimes the law is wrong. And when it's wrong, it's up to citizens as the last line of defense to get it right.

[00:13:28] And this is where I think we can make a difference. I'm not defending all illegals and I'm not defending breaking the law and I'm not defending, you know, protecting people and giving everybody amnesty. Okay? In other words, I'm not into rewarding people who have crossed the border. But if I cross the border illegally and I was in this country and I'm like, I'm so thankful for a better life. I'm so thankful for the opportunities that I have now. I'm so thankful for the safety for me and my family or the food or whatever,

[00:13:56] whatever compelled me in the first place. Then if they said to me, Sam, you were here for, you know, nine years illegally and therefore you're going to have $1,000 a year. You owe $9,000 to be paid over time. Now, if your employer pays it right off the bat, we'll give you a discount on it. It's only five grand if your employer just takes care of it. Boom. That really is a testament to you. And okay. And we don't need amnesty, but we can do it in a way. And I'd be dang grateful to pay that. I'd be like, absolutely. Why wouldn't I do that? They've given me so much.

[00:14:26] See? And there's a win-win. Lowell, there really is. If we're honest and if we're not picking sides and if we're not playing games and if we're humble and kind and wouldn't the Savior come up with a plan like that? Now, I'm not telling you my plan is the Savior's plan. I'm not saying that. I'm just a human trying to think through it and follow Christ the best I can. But to me, there's something here magical. Well, in Fabien's case, he and his family fled Mexico because of gangs.

[00:14:56] They were threatened. Their lives were threatened by the gang elements, by the mafia basically in Mexico. By the drug cartels or whatever. Very little choice in the matter. All they could do is flee with almost nothing. I mean, they fled with their shirts on their back to this country and they built a life here. They did attempt to go through the whole immigration process, filling out mountains of paperwork. It took years to do.

[00:15:25] And finally, eight or nine or ten, I don't know how many years ever into it, but they were finally denied citizenship, right? And then so they became worried about deportation, the threat of deportation. And yet, you know, it was just striking that this seems to be a common story, you know, and I do like the plan of mercy and justice that you've outlined here. Some of our best, and it turns out that people of other cultures,

[00:15:55] sometimes when they come here, they have more faith in our system of justice, the American system of justice, than we do. And this is the case portrayed in this movie where Fabien was, you know, he believed that America will not fail a good man. But John, his neighbor, neighbor John and his family, you know, they didn't have that much confidence in the U.S. justice system. And it took the willpower

[00:16:23] and the enthusiasm of Fabien to help them understand that, you know, America is great because she is good and because the people in her are good. And so John and his family, they finally came to their senses and they stood by and they took care of Fabien's family when he got thrown in jail and was threatened with deportation. Well, John and his family, they took Fabien's family under their wing

[00:16:52] and made sure they had, you know, clothing and food. Of course, they shut down Fabien's business. But, I mean, it's just amazing. See, and there again, why shut down a business that's bringing in revenue? Why not just say, hey, you know what, for your freedoms, we need support. And therefore, you've got a little, you know, you're going to have to pay something. It's kind of like a student loan or whatever else. You're going to pay it back. We've given you something. It's time to give back, Fabien. And why not be gentle? I'm just telling you right now, do you blame the guy for coming to America? See, I don't. I don't.

[00:17:22] I just, I don't see what, you know, he's just doing the best he can for his family and his people. And, you know, for example, is it wrong to steal if you're really starving and you steal food? Wow. You know, over this weekend, I re-watched parts of Les Mis. That's John Vaughan. And so I'm not justifying stealing in any way, ladies and gentlemen. I'm just telling you that there is a priority or a hierarchy of values. When you're really starving, I don't know that it's a sin to steal. Okay.

[00:17:52] Now you could say, well, hey, there's always a better way. Maybe, maybe not. You know, we in America have lived in such peaceful, kind, gentle, for the most part, fair conditions that we don't really know what that's like. Right. Right. And so I'm just telling you that when you're in those crisis situations, is it really wrong if you steal and you're hungry? Like, I don't know. I would say that, you know what? The greater commandment is for us to find a way to say, hey, if you've stolen, there must be a real good reason for it. We're going to give you the benefit of the doubt

[00:18:22] and we're going to get you on a higher road at Les Mis, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think it's tougher for people who live in highly urbanized areas because they really don't have a way to, you know, procure food by working the land, right? I mean, if you're living in a rural area of the country, you can find stuff to eat and you can grow stuff to eat. But, boy, when you're in this big city, I think it's pretty tough. And, of course, Jean Valjean... Yeah, if you're out in the country,

[00:18:51] you can even work for somebody. I mean, there's a lot of people if you just walk down the road and talk to people, someone will have some work for you to do. Mm-hmm. Whereas when you're in the city, they're like, you know what? Get out of here, bum. Or whatever. Mm-hmm. And so it's very tough. And anyway, I don't want to spend forever on this loan, but I do think this musical is magical. And I want to watch it now. Brotherhood is what it's called. Just type in Brotherhood and Musical and you'll find it right away. It's 2026, a somatic musical. Very, very good.

[00:19:18] And it really had a great impact on Lowell. And so he recommends it to all of us. I love it. I appreciate it. Any final thoughts on this one? Yeah, one final thought is that, you know, we have... My wife and I have friends from Portugal. I was just thinking about this last night that I was thinking about the show this morning. We have friends from Portugal, Argentina, Chile, Ecuador, Mexico, and Nepal. All really, really good friends. We're close with them, you know? And for me, when I first watched the movie,

[00:19:48] began watching the movie, I was struck by the fact that so many people look askance at people of a different culture because, you know, we don't. I mean, for us, they're just people like us. Well, they're God's children. That's what they are. Yeah, children of God. And so we love them. We appreciate them. We value our friendship with them. And yet, you know, the movie, it does such a good job showing how one of John's other neighbors

[00:20:16] was just painting Fabian and his family with the same brush as the, you know, all of the hoodlums that... The criminal element from the Hispanic criminal element that was causing problems in the community, this neighbor was painting Fabian's family with that same brush and said, they can't, you know, can't possibly be any good. We need to get rid of them. I can't believe that you're friends with them. I mean, that was his attitude.

[00:20:44] Yeah, that attitude is psychotic. It's crazy. Yeah, it is. So, yeah, you're right, Sam. It's a good movie, one to be watched. It doesn't have everything in it that I would have put in it, but, you know, it's a powerful, emotional and persuasive movie helping us see that not everybody is a criminal just because they're here illegally. Sometimes they have some pretty compelling reasons

[00:21:12] to be here, even though it is, you know, technically breaking our laws to be here. Sam? Well, so here's another question. If an illegal, if somebody came to you and you knew they were illegal, but they were hungry, would you feed them or would you turn them in? Well, I would feed them, certainly, but then work to get them through the immigration process. And if they're good people, then that means they're not,

[00:21:40] that means they're going to contribute to society. Productively, they're not going to be a criminal element. And so that's where I think, you know, mercy should step in and work with them to get them legal, right? Get them citizenship. I agree. And one of the things that we need to really think about as a government, hey, if we have such hardcore against them plans and they go underground, again, do you blame them? I've got a choice. I can go back to Mexico and deal with the gangs or the starvation or the whatever I'm facing,

[00:22:11] or I can live underground here and hope you don't catch me. Those are my only real choices, right? Yeah. Now, if you give me a chance to surface and be honorable and give me a way forward, then if I don't take it, it's on me. And I don't mind going after people that won't take those opportunities. But they got to be able to have enough trust that they won't be lied to and betrayed. Okay? We did this with the Indians, too. I mean, we have some history with this. They were here before we were, and so now we're here and they're after us.

[00:22:40] But the principles are the same. How do we treat those around us? And do we give people the opportunity for their best intentions? Do we give the people the opportunity to do what's right? And if we don't, I would blame us for most of the problems. Mm-hmm. I can't disagree with you on that, Sam. So anyway, I know people are mad at me because I'm soft on immigration, they say. And I don't think that's true. I think I'm fair on immigration. Uh-huh. Yeah, there's got to be a middle ground there,

[00:23:08] and that's why it's important to be able to sort out the criminal element. That's why you go after them first, because you don't want any criminal element, regardless of the culture from which they spring, whether they're white, brown, black, yellow. It doesn't matter. If they're a criminal element, you need to get them out of society. You need to smack down on that hard lull. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because the safety of good innocence, in fact, I think if you do it right immigration-wise, you can get the good immigration guys

[00:23:38] to turn against the bad immigration guys, and we can all work together to get rid of the bad immigration guys. So maybe if you'll help build the wall, maybe if you'll help turn in some criminals, maybe there's some benefit there, too. I mean, there's ways we can work together to solve these problems. I don't think any good guy wants criminals around either. Sure. I mean, isn't that why they left their countries? Yeah, that is. I wish they would have pointed out that, you know, ICE should have a warrant

[00:24:07] when they come to catch a bad guy. They need a warrant to do that. And they didn't really highlight that in the movie, but that's just one thing that I wish they would have done a little better job at. Yeah, they're trying to avoid the politics of it and stay on the right side of a discussion. Brotherhood, a somatic musical. Incredible, ladies and gentlemen. Check it out. 2026. I'm Sam Bushman. Lowell Nelson with me. When we get back, do you worry about illegals stealing from you more or do you worry about your government stealing from you more? I happen to think I'm worried about the government

[00:24:36] stealing from you more. And we'll talk about that in mere seconds with our dear brother, Lowell Nelson, CampaignForLiberty.org. I'm Sam Bushman. God save our constitutional republic. Thank you.