Radio Show Hour 1 – 02/25/2025

[00:00:13] Broadcasting live from atop the Rocky Mountains, the crossroads of the West. You are listening to the Liberty Roundtable Radio Talk Show. All right. Happy to have you along, my fellow Americans. Sam Bushman live on your radio. Hard-hitting news the network refused to use, no doubt starts now. This, my fellow Americans, is the broadcast for February 25th in the year of our Lord 2025.

[00:00:41] The goal always is to protect life, liberty, and property, to promote God, family, and country, using the checks and balances brilliantly put in place by the Founding Fathers in the supreme law of our land, the Constitution for the United States of America. That is our guide. As you know, we reject revolution unless it's a Jesus revolution. Then we're in because we follow the Prince of Peace. Welcome to the broadcast. Hope you're all doing absolutely fantastic. In the house with me now, the good sheriff. Sheriff Richard Mack, CSPOA.org.

[00:01:10] He's the founder and president of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association. Join the posse. Check out his incredible Tenth Amendment win, the greatest Tenth Amendment decision ever rendered in America. You can get the summary of the Supreme Court case at CSPOA.org. Sheriff, welcome, sir. Thank you very much, Sam. It's great to be with you this beautiful 84 degrees Tuesday morning in Arizona. But yes, it's a great morning, and thank you for having me, Sam.

[00:01:41] You do a great job with the WD Roundtable. Well, thank you, sir. We have a guest coming up that will be riveting to say the least. But in the meantime, a quick headline that I think is worthy of your thought and discussion. Did you know we had a pardon czar? We have a pardon czar? Yes, sir. Oh, man, we need to get a hold of him. Well, it's her, but yes. So Trump appoints Alice Marie Johnson. Do you remember who she is? No.

[00:02:10] As his tick or quote borders are. And Alice Marie Johnson is the lady that got put in jail for like 22 years for a nonviolent drug offense or whatever. And then they, Kim Kardashian pushed for her, and they finally let her out. Remember all that, too? Oh, yeah, yeah. All right. I knew you knew her if you got some contacts. I had to have her on the show. Yeah. Anyway, she's the pardons are now. Donald Trump appointed her last Thursday. Man, we need to get a hold of her. Yeah. Call Alice. Call Kim.

[00:02:40] Get a hold of Kim. Say, Kim, we need your funding. And Alice, we need to partner with you and Stuart Rhodes and all kinds of people. Ken Cromar. I mean, the list just grows daily. The people we need to work with on absolute prison reform. Pardoning people left and right for nonviolent offenses. You know, we've got more people in prison than any other nation than that. I'm just telling you right now, if that was the single thing Trump accomplished, it would be worth it. Now, I'm not saying that's all he'll get done. I'm just saying that is something we've really, really got to work on.

[00:03:09] I mean, think about like a Ken Cromar. It costs the average of $30,000 to $60,000 a year to keep someone in prison. That guy is peaceful. Give him an ankle monitor. Send him home. Let him, you know, work and pay taxes and whatever. I'm just telling you right now, we have got to work on this. Sheriff? Yeah.

[00:03:30] I mean, that's something that you and I have been involved in for ever since, especially the first time I got involved helping Amish farmers against the government. The first one I was involved with was Vernon Hershberger. And that was probably 15 years ago. And he was fighting the state there. And that was the first time I went to drink raw milk.

[00:03:53] And this one is actually on the steps of the state capital in Madison, Wisconsin. And he and his family were all there, all nine or ten of his children and his wife and a few other protesters. Max Cain is very involved in the food freedom fight. And it would be really simple. I mean, I know this is a little bit of a sideline to that.

[00:04:19] But it would be really simple to take care of the Amish who don't believe in pasteurizing their milk. And most of them don't. Just leave them alone. That's all you got to do. Well, that or just say they have to put it on their products that they're not pasteurized. Just like, you know, they require a warning on cigarettes that they could kill you and they cause cancer. Well, okay. None of them would care.

[00:04:45] If they were required to put a sign in their yard or in front of their farm or on their products. But instead, the stupid government goes and shuts them down, tears open all their products and pours out all their milk in front of their children. It's very traumatic. And it's just cruel. And it's stupid. Well, it's criminal. And it's stealing, though. You don't have the right to destroy somebody else's private property, I might add. And milk is private property. Anyway, you just look at this thing and you go, man, we have caught.

[00:05:13] All I can tell you is I pray that Alice can work with us, that we can get a hold of her, that we can really do something. In my opinion, for President Trump to put a pardons are there is huge. Now, I probably would have put somebody else there that's got a little bit more. Oh, I don't know what you call it. Mojo for solutions. Maybe I'm not saying she doesn't. But I'm just saying, you know, a drug convicted person that was wrongly in jail. I mean, she might be a great person for that.

[00:05:38] I would like to see somebody who may have greater constitutional understanding, greater law enforcement understanding. I'd like to put together a committee for these pardons so you could, you know, put together the cases so that pardon could happen. I'd like to include people like, say, Steve Stockman, former congressman. Hey, he went to jail and suffered as well. Anyway, I'm saying, you know, maybe maybe I'll be surprised by her. But I just would like more of a committee, more of a process. I'd like to partner everybody on Good Fridays and this kind of stuff.

[00:06:08] And whether she'll be, you know, a person to carry forward on that, I don't know. But I know we want to partner with her and help all we can. I know that much, Sheriff. Yeah, I do, too. That's what I that's the bottom line with me. If she's willing to work with us and if she's willing to reach out to people across the country to get their family members and friends and other people that everyone's aware of that should not be in prison.

[00:06:32] And and yeah, and maybe they can do something post prison for Sam Durand. I don't know, but this has got to stop. And people people are being put in prison out of vindictiveness and revenge and pride. And I'm the boss of you, so I can throw you in prison if you don't do it.

[00:06:59] I say that that has happened to too many people. It's a pride fight. And, you know, cops still get involved in these ridiculous pride fights that I actually talk and talk about in my book. The proper role of law enforcement. We can't we can't be in the position of going after people because they offended us or they they belittled my badge and my authority.

[00:07:28] And so, no. And it still happens quite frequently. It does. And we've got to stop it. Speaking of books and speaking of the effort, folks, we've got to defy tyrants. I'll tell you that right now. Defy tyrants dot com is the website for our guest. Matthew Trahella is our guest. He's the author of the incredible book, The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates, which we'll get to in a second. But he's also a big pro-life guy. He stands against murder, abortion.

[00:07:58] Rightly so. Welcome to the broadcast, sir. Hey, good to be here with you, Sam. Thank you. Catch me up 30 seconds on who you are as a person. What got into all this? Oh, yeah. Well, I'm 64 years old. I'm a father. I'm a grandfather, a great grandfather. By the way, hold on. Father of 11 children, folks. He's pro-life. Go ahead, sir. I'm still alive. And we have 35 grandchildren. We just had our first great grandchild. So, the Lord truly blessed us. Wow. Congratulations.

[00:08:29] I pastor a church over here. And, yeah, what got me involved in the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate was precisely what you brought up, what was happening to the pre-born, you know, that they were being butchered and slaughtered. It was all just a Supreme Court ruling. And we didn't have one governor, not one legislature, not one mayor, not one city council anywhere in the country simply say, no. No one will be murdered here.

[00:08:58] Instead, everybody blithely complied and over 50 million were slaughtered. So, that's what got me involved in writing a book about the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate. And when you say over 50 million were slaughtered, think about that number, ladies and gentlemen. That's just Roe versus Wade. In the history of the world, the number, I don't even know how to take a stab at a real number.

[00:09:20] But countless male and female God's children, sons and daughters of Almighty God, have been literally murdered. Now they've basically changed, and now they're just shipping murder medication across state lines, even in states that forbid it. Matthew. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, the slaughter continues on across the country. More of it's moved to chemicals rather than surgical killings.

[00:09:48] And the indifference of the church has been a problem, as you know, for five decades. And hopefully we'll see some repentance in the days ahead and see a change in that regard. Now, the church that you pastor has a great name, too, Mercy Seat Christian Church. That's a great starting point to say, hey, we need to look to the mercy seat when we deal with this stuff. It's a Milwaukee area congregation committed to declaring God's holy law.

[00:10:17] That would be thou shalt not kill, right? Yes. Yes. What do you say to this? I realized he was the doctrine of the lesser magistrates guy, and I'm very familiar with that. And we'll dig into that here in a minute a little more. I didn't realize it all started with the pro-life focus, though, did you? I did not. But that's great. Great. That's on our hit list, Matt. Did you go by Matt or Matthew or Reverend? Matt's fine. Yep. All three. Okay.

[00:10:46] Well, one other question about your intro there. Where are you a pastor, and what's the name of the church? It's Mercy Seat Christian Church, and it's in Heartland, Wisconsin, which is just outside of Milwaukee. And I've been pastoring there for 37 years now. Well, we need to come see that. Hey, man, we need to come and attend church with you. How big is the congregation? It's about 250 people. I met Sheriff Mack.

[00:11:14] I met you once like 32 years ago. I think it was like 1993 you were speaking here in Milwaukee. No, there's no way. I was still in high school then. Right. Really? Thank you for mentioning. I don't remember. Yeah. It was in Milwaukee? Yes. Yep. And where did I speak? I think you were speaking for what was called then at the time the U.S. Taxpayers Party.

[00:11:42] You were speaking at one of their gatherings. Wow. Okay. Yeah, we sure we need one of those so the party will be over. We don't have U.S. taxpayers under the IRS anymore, so I'm hoping the party's over for that one. Yeah, they changed their name to Constitution Party. Yes, I'm very familiar with it. I'm just teasing. We've got to shut down the IRS and taxes, though, by the way. Talk to me about the doctrine of the lesser magistrate. It's biblical, first of all, but how did you encapsulate this in a meaningful way?

[00:12:11] In other words, what got you to say, all right, we've got to boil this down and explain this to the people? Yeah. Well, actually, you know, it came from a prayer meeting or having prayer just to seek God, call out to him. It was 2007. And the Lord really impressed upon me that I needed to write a book about the doctrine of the lesser magistrate and teach it to the magistrates of our nation and to the people of our nation, that they need to understand this doctrine.

[00:12:36] And the doctrine is simply, it's real simple, that when the higher ranking civil authority makes unjust or immoral law, policy or court opinion, the God-given right and duty of the lesser ranking civil authority is not to obey. And if necessary, to actively resist the superior civil authority. So that's a doctrine in a nutshell.

[00:13:00] The duty of the lesser authorities when evil is being done or lawlessness, unconstitutional actions are being done by the, you know, higher ranking civil authority is not blithe compliance. Rather, rather their duty is what we call interposition, where they literally use their lawful office to stand between the tyrant superior civil authority and the people that they represent. And I use a quote actually from Emperor Trajan.

[00:13:30] He was giving a sword to one of his subordinates. And he said, use this sword against my enemies if I give righteous commands. But if I give unrighteous commands, use it against me. And that is the doctrine in a nutshell. And the doctrine is found in the word of God also, both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

[00:13:53] And John Knox, who was a reformer during the 1500s, probably wrote the foremost, I consider it the foremost treatise on the doctrine of the lesser magistrate. It was entitled his Appellation to the Nobles of Scotland. The nobles were the lesser magistrates of that day. And they cited, he cited over 70 passages of scripture to show that the doctrine is sound in the word of God. Very important.

[00:14:20] All right, ladies and gentlemen, Matthew will be speaking in Utah and in Wyoming in Spanish Fork. What is it tomorrow night, Wednesday night? Yeah, tomorrow night in Spanish Fork and then Thursday night in Evanston, Wyoming. In Evanston, Wyoming. Folks that are putting this together are dear friends of ours. We're grateful for their leadership and involvement in doing so. Lou Moore, Eldon Stahl and others are involved in this. We commend them for their efforts.

[00:14:50] Now, let's talk about these proven guidelines for proper and legitimate resistance to tyranny, often without causing any major upheaval in society. This is really important because you can peacefully back people off. And not only is this doctrine through history in the Old and New Testament, biblically, in other examples through history where people understand this doctrine, but it's also really highlighted in the U.S. Constitution.

[00:15:15] The divisions of power, the three branches of government, the difference between jurisdictions at the general level and the state level. There's all kind of, for example, they thought Richard Mack was the lesser magistrate. It turned out that Bill Clinton was and he was wrong and he had to be shut down. So sometimes you have to shut down the lesser magistrate. Sometimes the lesser magistrate has to overrule the, quote, greater magistrate. It has to do with the moral compass, right? Exactly. Yeah.

[00:15:44] And our founders wanted these checks and balances and they understood the doctrine of the lesser magistrate. They understood the Christian doctrine of interposition. And yeah, they embedded it right in the form of government that they established, which, of course, is a federalism. I'm not talking about the federal government, but a federalism. And in a federalism, all four of the great governments matter. Family government, church government, civil government, all meant to produce within the individual the fourth great government, which is self-government.

[00:16:13] Each of them having their own, you know, jurisdiction role and limits. And when it comes to civil government within a true federalism, they wanted to pillar multiple levels of government, multiple branches at each level because they held to a biblical view of the nature of man. And that's that he's wicked and in need of a savior, namely Jesus Christ. And so they didn't want power to reside in one man's hand. They were throwing off a monarchy.

[00:16:42] They didn't want it to reside in a small group of man's hands. That would be an oligarchy like SCOTUS has become. No, they wanted the magistrates to take an oath to this constitution so that if any other magistrates at any level or any branch impugned the constitution, they knew their duty was not subservience to those ones acting lawlessly.

[00:17:06] But their duty was more important than ever to make sure they upheld the constitution because. And in reality, we learned that there's jurisdictions and separations of powers and this kind of stuff. But Richard Mack, in this case, his Supreme Court case, when he would have been considered the lesser magistrate and the Supreme Court agreed with him, right? Yes, exactly.

[00:17:29] Yeah, and I was thankful to hear Sheriff Mack mention our great milk caper here in Madison, Wisconsin, where, you know, this crime wave was going on from this father with his children on their family farm. And most people don't know that of what actually brought that thing down was, you know, jury nullification.

[00:17:53] And it was the biggest case I've ever seen of jury nullification in my lifetime, even though the jury recognized that, okay, technically they broke the letter of the law. The truth of the matter is this law is garbage. And so they did their duty and they found him not guilty. And this has happened, this matter of milk has happened in other parts of the country. There's a huge case going on in Pennsylvania right now. Indiana, which is right next door to us here in Wisconsin. It's Amos Miller. Yeah, I worked with him too.

[00:18:23] And it is so sad to see this happening. But please continue. No, it is. It's sad. But in Indiana, we had several years back now. You know, you get older, you can't remember the exact year anymore. But we had a sheriff named Brad Rogers and the feds were coming in after, you know, one of his farmers in his gallery. Yeah, that was David Hostetler. Yes, we worked very closely on that.

[00:18:48] In fact, I worked with Brad on that and we devised a letter together to the federal government, to the FDA, which was the one that's going after him. And David Hostetler actually called me and said, what do I do about this? This is happening. I'm getting harassed by the FDA just about every month. They just come on my property without permission.

[00:19:14] And at first, it didn't bother me because I passed all their inspections, but they're just continuously doing it. And I said, you have a great sheriff there in your county. And I gave him his number and he called Brad and then the rest is history how he literally kicked out the FDA. Yeah, he did. No, that is awesome. I had no idea, you know, where you were involved behind the scenes.

[00:19:40] Oh, we're very close with now County Commissioner Brad Rogers. Yes, yes. No, it's a perfect example of interposition of the doctrine of the lesser magistrate. And, you know, it is so rare to find men like Brad Rogers, you know, men who are willing to hazard themselves and go up against the beat. Have you ever heard his public presentation?

[00:20:05] We've had him at our – he's done his talk with us about a dozen times or more. I saw one of them where he was speaking to one of your guests. No, just a tremendous story. And, you know, during COVID when it came to the – by the way, I'll tell you this. I have a stack of letters from magistrates at various levels all across the country, you know, have written to me about the book I wrote.

[00:20:30] And the book has sold over 150,000 copies now and translated into five other languages. And – but they contact me and they say, you know, if they're a Christian, they'll say, this is the most important book I've ever read for my office other than the Bible. If they're not a Christian, this is the most important book I've ever read for my office. And the number one group of magistrates that I've gotten letters from, the biggest group, is sheriffs.

[00:20:57] There are a lot of good men in the sheriff realm. And I was honored two years ago to give the sermon at the prayer breakfast for the National Sheriff's Association. And, of course, I did it on the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate, the duty before God. And there's a lot of bad sheriffs too. You're totally shocking me now. You were asked by the NSA to give a prayer at their meeting. Did they ever mention your book?

[00:21:28] Yeah, it was more than just a prayer. They actually had me do the sermon. And then I had – was able to have a table there, put out hundreds and hundreds of copies of the book into sheriff's hands or their deputy's hands. They have ignored my Supreme Court case. They've never talked about it. They will never have me at any of their meetings.

[00:21:49] And, in fact, one time when they were in Nashville about 12, 13, 14 years ago, maybe even 15 now, I bought a table and they canceled me. They wanted nothing to do with it. And I had no respect for the NSA, especially their hierarchy. And the year that we filed our Supreme Court case, the year we filed, there was probably at that point about three or four of us. There ended up being seven sheriffs to join this.

[00:22:19] And I've always been disappointed that not very many sheriffs joined this fight. And it was to save the office of sheriff. We didn't get invited to speak at their national convention. But the person we were fighting, Janet Reno, did. Wow. Really, I'm shocked and I'm pleased that they actually had you there.

[00:22:40] But I don't get what the NSA – first of all, I've never seen the NSA do anything for the Constitution, for the right to keep bare arms. They've never said anything about pro-life or that we're trying to stop and the sheriff should get involved or stop abortions. And there's never been any of that from the NSA. Yeah. Somehow I made it through the back door. And I don't know how it all worked. But they contacted me. I'm really glad you did.

[00:23:10] I do. I do. Let me just explain. There's this supreme being, God, who involves himself in the affairs of men, my friends. And he made this possible. And thank the heavens for it, Matthew. Amen. And I'll tell you, when Wicked Men found out that I was giving the sermon there – They lost their minds, didn't they? Oh, totally. And they tried to get me thrown off the venue. But the guy who had the final word – I forget his name now. He's a former sheriff.

[00:23:41] And he talked to me on the phone. And I talked to him. And he said, I am not removing you. And so, in spite of all their hoopla and craziness – And when was this? When? This was two years ago. It'll be two years ago, this gym, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Wow. All right, ladies and gentlemen, hang tight. We've got a lot going on on your radio. I'm telling you right now, great stuff.

[00:24:09] The doctrine of the lesser magistrates, a critical understanding. That's what Richard Mack's whole Supreme Court case is based on. That's what a fully informed jury is based on. That's what the checks and balances vertically and horizontally in this country are based on. Matthew Trahella with us, ladies and gentlemen. Defytyrants.com. Get his book, The Lesser Magistrates, ASAP. Hang tight. You're listening to the one and only Liberty Roundtable Live.

[00:24:53] You're listening to Liberty News Radio. News this hour from townhall.com. I'm Rich Thomason. Following talks with President Trump at the White House, the French president is raising hopes for a truce between Ukraine and Russia. Emmanuel Macron said the arrival of President Trump at the White House had been a game changer.

[00:25:16] He said he believed it was feasible to talk about a truce in the war and the start of negotiations for a sustainable peace within weeks. Mr Macron said he'd spoken to 30 other European leaders and allies, and many of them were willing to be part of security guarantees for Ukraine. The BBC's Peter Boast says Macron spoke with Fox News. The House gearing up for a vote on a GOP budget bill. The March 14th deadline looms when the current continuing resolution expires.

[00:25:46] House Speaker Mike Johnson is trying to persuade all Republicans to approve a reconciliation bill for the current budget year. Speaking at a Monday event sponsored by Americans for Prosperity, the speaker articulated principles which he hopes a conservative budget will achieve. We're pro-family and pro-growth. And Speaker Johnson said smaller government is the objective. What we need is to get government out of the way. We need a smaller, leaner federal government. Mr Johnson went so far as to ask for prayer, saying that the stakes are high and Republicans cannot absorb a nay vote.

[00:26:15] George Williams reporting. Apple's planning to invest some $500 billion in the U.S. over the next four years to include the hiring of about 20,000 people. Vivek Ramaswamy launching a bid for Ohio governor. He has the backing of President Trump. Hospitalized Pope Francis. He spent a restful night, according to the Vatican. The Secret Service agent who leaped onto the back of President Kennedy's limo after the president was shot back in 1963 has died.

[00:26:44] Clint Hill was 93 years old. Watching Wall Street this morning, the Dow is down about nine points. The Nasdaq Composite Index off 219 points for loss of just over 1%. More on these stories at townhall.com. Do you owe $10,000 or more in credit card debt or personal loans? With credit card debt at all-time highs, Debt Relief Advocates is urgently notifying consumers of debt relief now being made available, designed to aid consumers with out-of-control credit card debt.

[00:27:14] Those who qualify and enroll for this relief program will only have to pay back a fraction of what they owe. This is not bankruptcy or a debt consolidation loan. This is a relief program that credit card companies would rather you not know about, as it ends your debt nightmare and saves you lots of money. Consumers owing at least $10,000 in credit card debt or personal loans can now take advantage of this debt relief as the cost of living skyrockets.

[00:27:39] Debt Relief Advocates has established a relief hotline for you to call to learn what debt reduction you may qualify for, so don't wait. For this free information, call the relief hotline at 800-606-4110. 800-606-4110. Again, that's 800-606-4110. Former Sheriff Richard Mack recounts in his book The Proper Role of Law Enforcement,

[00:28:04] how he came to realize while working as a beat cop how wrong the all-too-common orientation of police officers is when they think of their job as being to write tickets and arrest people. Richard Mack tells of his personal transformation from by-the-number cop to constitution-conscious defender of citizen safety and freedoms. Learn what it really means to serve and protect. Purchase your copy at cspoa.org. That's cspoa.org. Do you know what is great about America? Ask an Immigrant.

[00:28:33] Ask an Immigrant is a new podcast dedicated to helping Americans, especially our youth, value, appreciate, and be grateful for the freedoms we have here in America. Join host Lydia Wallace-Nuttle as she interviews immigrants from around the world to discover their inspiring personal stories about why they came to America. To learn more about why America is the most prosperous, greatest country in the world, download the Loving Liberty app or go to lovingliberty.net.

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[00:29:55] American Heritage School in American Fork. From atop the Rocky Mountains, the crossroads of the West, you are listening to the Liberty Roundtable Radio Talk Show.

[00:30:25] Author, speaker, pastor, prisoner, Matthew Trahella, ladies and gentlemen, author of the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates with us now. You want to learn more about what he's doing? You want to get involved? Defytyrants.com. Boy, howdy, is that something we got to do in America, right?

[00:30:48] He explains how we can rein in lawless acts by government and restore justice in our nation. He provides multiple examples of doing that. Sheriff Mack's case, probably front and center, is one of the key issues. Brad Rogers doing the same thing. Good Americans and fully informed juries doing the same thing. Nullification all over the country. It's great, necessary. The checks and balances are brilliant by our founders. Chaining those tyrants down with the supreme law of the land.

[00:31:17] The Constitution is key. But Pastor Trahella, you have spent 15 months in America's jails for non-violently opposing mass murder, abortion clinics. On behalf of the most innocent among us, I commend you for your service, sir. Tell us about how all that went down, will you? Sure. Well, this was back in the 90s.

[00:31:44] And there was an organization that came about called Operation Rescue. And I heard the founder talking on the radio about what they were doing. And it struck me in my heart that this makes sense, you know, to non-violently place yourself at the doors of the death camp between the one who was coming to murder the innocent child and the innocent child themselves.

[00:32:10] And, yeah, so I got involved with that and was involved for about eight years. And we were the first ones to violate the FACE Act here in Wisconsin. We were the first ones in the whole nation when they passed FACE. And we saw literally thousands of pre-born children rescued from death because of our efforts.

[00:32:34] And we did about, I did about 15 months in jail over a four-year period from my efforts on behalf of the pre-born, which I always tell people, jail, the really only bad side of jail is really being separated from your family. Because wherever we are when we're his, we're able to minister. And you had instant respect inside the jail system from the other inmates when they found out what you were in there for.

[00:33:02] And so I'd hold Bible studies with them and get on the phones with their girlfriends and wives because they're having trouble and try to help and all that kind of thing. Kind of became the inside chaplain. And so, but yeah, being separated from your family was definitely the big downer of it all. Now you speak of Operation Rescue. That's Troy Newman and crew. And he just emailed us and he said, dear friend of Operation Rescue, great news.

[00:33:30] President Trump has decided to investigate the abortion pills. You and I both know how deadly abortion pills can be. And this is a huge step in the right direction. However, we need President Trump to go just a little further than that, says Troy Newman. The abortion cartels have literally created a booming business around abortion pills.

[00:33:58] Surgical, you know, they don't do the surgical anymore. They just do the abortion pills where you literally just get this like brown envelope shipped across state lines, even in jurisdictions where it's illegal. Little girls and women, you know, go into their bathrooms and take a murder medication. They're all alone. This is disaster. But abortion is something that we need to stop in America today. And sadly, I feel like since Roe versus Wade, they've actually escalated murder via this murder medication.

[00:34:27] It's silent. It's in your face. But it's affecting people around you everywhere you are. This is critical, Matthew. It is, absolutely. And what's sad is that pre-born, you know, I've been involved in this fight for, you know, 40 years now. And the pre-born always seem to get pushed to the back of the bus, for lack of a better term. And they always are used as political footballs again and again.

[00:34:55] And why don't you just stop the murder? Just be done with it, you know? Very difficult. So good to hear he's calling for an investigation. He needs to, he pardoned a bunch of pro-lifers who had interposed at the doors of the death camps. And, you know, what he did there was proper, right, and just.

[00:35:16] And he just needs to speak justice for the pre-born and use his bully pulpit as best as he can on their behalf rather than, you know, using them at times. He uses them clearly as political footballs also. So good to hear that that's been called for. And hopefully some goodness will come from it. Well, and just to add one tidbit to this, both the House and the Senate now have bills to repeal the FACE Act.

[00:35:44] We must use the Pentagon and our advantage to stop all murder, all future pro-life warriors. So they're literally now pushing back against FACE. And a precursor to FACE is kind of how they put you in jail, right? Yes. Yep, exactly. Yeah. So that's the tools they use when they don't want someone, you know, taking action on behalf of their neighbor. And, you know, they violated free speech.

[00:36:14] They jailed us for nonviolently interposing. But, yeah, the slaughter has just continued all these years. And, again, I go back to the pulpits. I am a churchman. I'm pastoring for nearly four decades. And the pulpits are overwhelmed. The churchmen are overwhelmingly silent on these moral matters. Ladies and gentlemen, you've got to demand Congress passes the, quote, FACE Act Repeal Act of 2025. You've got to do it now.

[00:36:44] Let's defund murder, falsely labeled as abortion, once and for all, ladies and gentlemen. Sheriff Mack? Yeah. Sam, you're aware of this also. And I just, before we have to let our good pastor friend go, are you familiar with IREHR and Devin Burkhart with that organization? No, I'm not.

[00:37:13] They've attacked you and me a great deal. And he attacked me. And I think Sam also, to an extent, on this particular issue. And he said that, why haven't I come out publicly and denounced your book because it promotes violence? And I did see that. But he gave some sort of quote somewhere in his emails that it's anti-Semitic.

[00:37:39] Do you know of anything in your book that promotes or defends violence? Maybe when you say that you've got to answer. Because I do the same. But is there anything. Well, there's the doctrine of the lesser magistrate. And then there's false doctrine, Sheriff. Well, of course. But yeah. There's nothing anti-Semitic. Do you think that's anti-Semitic or racist in your book at all? I haven't read the whole thing. I've read lots of excerpts. But I've never read the whole book. And I never saw anything that was. Can you respond again? No, there isn't. There's nothing anti-Semitic.

[00:38:07] There's nothing racist at all within the book. And what's interesting is when they say it calls for violence, actually the doctrine of lesser magistrate helps avoid violence. Because it reigns in the tyranny and lawlessness before there's bloody revolution in the land. So it's just wicked men being wicked. Let me tell you what I did respond to. I said, and I'm quoting my email to him, HR equals human rights.

[00:38:36] And that's what their name is. Do you know what their whole name is, what it stands for? I can look it up. But it's like the Institute on something. Anyway, I'll find it. Okay, so HR is in their title and it's human rights. Human rights, indeed. Communism is the antithesis of human rights. And you support the destruction of all human rights and civil rights.

[00:39:05] You, sir, are a pathetic liar and a coward. The different governments will control each other. That's in quotes. That's from my MACVUS Supreme Court decision. This is what my beliefs are based on. Not your fabricated mumbo jumbo. Put my name. But then after that, I didn't hear back from you. But he's been stalking me across the country.

[00:39:32] And every now and again, he raises his stupid head again and starts going after me. When he went beyond this, I wanted to make sure that I cleared that up and gave you a chance to respond to his ridiculous accusations. Because he makes them about us all the time. Sam Envy. No. Thank you for pointing that out. By the way, I have a quote in here in my book from a sheriff. And it says, the sheriff said this.

[00:39:57] He said, when we raise our right arm and promise to protect and defend the Constitution, does that oath mean only as far as my supervisor or the Supreme Court allows me to? Does the oath essentially bestow responsibility to me to know it, study it, cherish it, and ultimately defend it, even against a well-meaning misdirected? Exactly. It's here. I got you quoted on page 95. Yeah.

[00:40:21] What this clown wants to do over at the Institute for Research and Education on Human Rights. That's what it stands for, by the way. Brother. Brother. The Institute for Research and Education on Human Rights. He wants to basically divide us. That's what he wants to do. It's Satan's age-old tactic. They want to divide and conquer.

[00:40:40] But the fact is, ladies and gentlemen, our peaceful stand as we follow the Prince of Peace will absolutely overcome even the darts of evil men and the darts of the adversary. We can defund murder. We can understand the doctrine of the lesser magistrate and say, hey, morality is the key here. And really, the doctrine of the lesser magistrate relates to self-government. It relates to peace. It relates to the Ten Commandments.

[00:41:08] It relates to us acknowledging that God is our creator and the author of our liberty, Matthew. Amen. Amen. All right. I know you got to go. We absolutely need to get together. And I need to tell you, when you're in Spanish Fork tomorrow, tell all my relatives hello. My mother was actually born in Spanish Fork. Oh, wow. Okay. All right. We know you got to fly really quick.

[00:41:33] As you've learned all this, as you've gone through 15 months of being in jail, standing for the most innocent among us, thank you for doing so. Writing this book, helping people understand this proper doctrine, biblically brought forward in modern times. Our government mirrors that biblical mandate as well. Thank the heavens for that. But through all that, what would you tell America if you could say one thing? What would I tell them on Wednesday? Yeah. No, on one thing. For one thing.

[00:42:00] If you had one thing to say of all that you've learned, all that you've been through, what one thing would you tell the country? Follow Christ. Honor him. His law. His word. His gospel. That's the number one thing. Wow. It doesn't sound violent to me, Sheriff. No, it doesn't. Matt, I really love what you represent. Obviously, we have a lot in common.

[00:42:25] You know, you've plagiarized some of my work in my book, and I absolutely am honored that you have. Well, it's not plagiarizing if you give proper attribution, but there you go. Matthew, thank you so much, sir. We'll look forward to it. You're speaking Wednesday night in Spanish Fork, Utah, Thursday night in Evanston, Wyoming, right? Yes. Yep. God bless you for your service. Travel safe, sir. Thank you so much. God bless you both. Thank you, Matt. Thank you.

[00:42:53] The author of The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates, ladies and gentlemen, to get his book, to learn more, simply go to defytirants.com. I dig that domain, Sheriff. Defytirants.com. Don't you love it? Absolutely. Absolutely. I love it, and I'm really glad he was on with us today. What a great man. What a great book. In fact, he and I ought to go someplace and have a book signing.

[00:43:23] Let's have him sign his book, The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate, and then I'll be signing my book, The County Sheriff of America's Last Hope, where a lot of this comes from. That quote he's from. That quote he gave, I think it's from that book. But otherwise, but as soon as he started, I go, man, that sounds like me. And then as he kept going, I go, hey, that is me. I didn't know I was quoted in his book. I have his book somewhere, so I'll have to get that out.

[00:43:52] Yeah, his book is incredible. And I really want to focus on this, ladies and gentlemen. You've got to understand this doctrine of the lesser magistrate is found everywhere in society, in government, in the Bible. I mean, it's all over the place, Sheriff. We really need to understand that. I mean, even the idea of a jury and a fully informed jury where they not only judge the law at hand, but they judge the intent. They have an overrule.

[00:44:20] All these checks and balances in the system are based on this nullification, on the doctrine of the lesser magistrate, on your Supreme Court case win that proves the point. I mean, everywhere in society you see it, even a husband and a wife relationship is like this. Many people think that the man's in charge and the woman would be the lesser magistrate. But if her husband is doing wicked, evil things, she has the right to stand and the obligation to stand against it, right? So this is everywhere in society.

[00:44:47] They make it sound like we just kind of came up with this whacked out, crazy, dangerous idea, but it's found everywhere, sir. Isn't that what the man that Carter was even built on? Yeah, well, his book talks about the Magna Carta. I did read that. Yeah. So, yes, we've talked about the Magna Carta of 1215 a great deal because it is all about standing in the way. It's all about interposition.

[00:45:13] It's all about stopping this sort of thing when government gets out of control. And, Sam, I really want to say this. I want to read this once again from my email. I really think this is why he shut up. Because human rights, question mark, human rights, indeed. And their organization is communistic.

[00:45:41] And the founder of IREHR is a communist. And so, indeed, I bring that up. Communism is the antithesis of human rights. And you support the destruction of all human rights and civil rights. You, sir, are a pathetic liar and coward.

[00:46:03] So, he wanted me, Devin Burgart, wanted me to denounce Pastor Tuella and his book. We're not going to denounce him. We're going to promote him. We're going to have him speak in American or Spanish Fork tomorrow night in Evanston, Wyoming on Thursday. He's on the radio today. We're going to quadruple down and do just the opposite, Sheriff. That is correct. Yes. Everybody make sure you get that book. And then highlight the quote where I say what he said I said.

[00:46:34] All right, ladies and gentlemen. Eldon Stahl in the house with us right now as well. He's one of the people that put together this incredible speaking tour for Matthew Trahella. Eldon, welcome back, sir. And tell us more detail. Oh, thanks, Dan. It's great to be on. And anybody in the area that wants to come down is certainly welcome. It's only $10 a ticket, so very affordable.

[00:47:02] Come down tomorrow night, Wednesday night at 630. We'll be at the Spanish Fork Library, the new one across the street that they built. And you don't want to miss this message. Wait. You said across the street. Across the street from what? Well, the old one is across the street. Oh, okay. Yeah, right. So they built the new one. They put it across the street on Main. And the other one on Thursday is at 7 p.m.

[00:47:32] at the Roundhouse Portland Rose Room in Evanston on Main Street. And where did people get their tickets then? Yep. Well, they can come to the door. I can send you the links. They can get e-tickets as well for both of those events. There's a little convenience fee if they want to do that. But, or they can contact me.

[00:48:01] My email is estall at jbs.org. And I can direct them to the right place. So, E-S-T-A-H-L at jbs.org. All right. Who put this together? What made you think of bringing this guy in? I mean, I think it's a wonderful call needed. I wish every legislative person in the state of Utah could attend this thing, you know? Oh, yeah.

[00:48:26] Well, we've got some John Burst Society members and friends and people that, you know, they're really excited about the message. And they wanted to actually form two new committees to put on these events. So, trained them up. And so, it's really neat to see that come together. And they just said, you know, we really need to bring this message into the area. Boy, do I agree with them on that.

[00:48:53] In fact, if you go to newamerican.com, there's some incredible articles written about the doctrine of the lesser magistrate pointing to the good pastor on this as well. So, check out the newamerican.com. It's kind of a precursor for your understanding. As you get ready and come attend the events, you'll be kind of caught up at the speed on this thing. It's very simple, like you said, but it's complex. And what I mean by that is the principle is simple. It's today just because you have a lower rank or something like that or a perceived lower rank than somebody else, that doesn't mean you have to go along with their wickedness.

[00:49:22] It does mean you need to stand up and stop it. Well, that general principle is easy to understand. In the day-to-day reality, though, it gets complicated in a hurry because people go to jail. I mean, you know, even Pastor Trujillo had to spend 15 months just standing up for, like, the most innocent among us. And so, this is a little bit complicated in the application, Eldon. It can be.

[00:49:48] And, by the way, you mentioned a book signing, and he's actually doing a book signing on Thursday in Evanston at the Four Peats State Coffee on Main Street. So, I guess, Sheriff Mack, if you're in the area, come up. Boy, wouldn't I love to. But he's not doing a book signing in Spanish Fork? No, we didn't really have the time to schedule that, but we'd like to.

[00:50:18] He'll sign books at the event that evening, you know, but we don't have a separate book signing. But in Spanish Fork, excuse me, in Evanston, it's on Thursday from 11 to 2 for Pete's sake, coffee. And are you also part of JBS? Yep. Yep, ma'am. Great organization. Eldon is the field director in our area for the JBS. Oh, okay, good. Yeah.

[00:50:48] Wow, that's fantastic you're doing this. Man, Sam, maybe we need to start doing some double teaming with Pastor Truella and me at the same event. Boy. I'm ready to make it happen, man. We've got to work on that for sure. That'd be great. And then we need to call out the Utah County Sheriff while we're there and say,

[00:51:16] maybe you ought to listen to this stuff because he is very anti-constitutional sheriff. That's sadly a reality check that we're facing, ladies and gentlemen. That's why we got to. And he really is running unopposed. He ran unopposed, right? Oh, yeah, probably. No one even opposed this guy. So I hate to say it, but we, the American people, don't have a whole lot to say there. You know, when you don't stand up and put a good guy in the ring, what do you expect when you lose, right?

[00:51:47] Yeah. That's why Eldon's Dahl stood around for sheriff in Utah County. That's what I'm saying. Okay. You know Sheriff Smith very well, though. Richard tried that. Sheriff Mack tried that, and basically he got attacked by the FBI. Maybe Cash Patel could right that wrong and give you kind of a, what do they call it when you, reparation? You know, abuse that you took there in the election cycle.

[00:52:14] And, you know, we could use that money to go ahead and promote the doctrine of the lesser magistrate, culminating in the Supreme Court. Yeah, I ran in 1998 for Utah County Sheriff against Dave Bateman, and I won the convention two to one over him. And then three days before the election, the FBI and IRS raided my office, and the Provo Daily Herald had, it could have been a bigger headline if I had to, Mack, raided by the FBI.

[00:52:39] That came out three days before the election, and the most opportune time to do me the most damage and not give me time enough to respond. The FBI literally instigated election fraud, and then at the end you were guilty of? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. In fact, I never heard from them again. They never called me, touched me. That's because they knew there was nothing to it. Their job was already done. And what are you going to do about it?

[00:53:09] Yeah, their job was done. Their job was done. I lost, and they went on to somebody else. Well, there you have it. Ladies and gentlemen, we're about out of time this hour. Eldon, thank you for putting this incredible event together again. We're talking about Matthew Trahella. He is a pastor, a writer, a speaker. His website, defytirants.com.

[00:53:31] Go to thenewamerican.com to read about the doctrine of the lesser magistrate from a pro-life pastor that puts his money, his time, his efforts where his mouth is. He'll be speaking Wednesday night. That's tomorrow night, 630, in Spanish Fork at the New Library across the street from the old one. And then in Evanston, Wyoming, the day after, 7 o'clock Thursday evening. Get your tickets today. Give out your email again if people want to get tickets ahead of time, or you can do it at the door. Yep. Eldon?

[00:54:00] Yeah, estahl, E-S-T-A-H-L, at J-B-S dot org. I'll send you the links to the e-tickets if you want them, Sam, and people want to go to your website or something on the notes. Roger that. Send them to me. We should appreciate you, sir. Godspeed. Eldon Stahl, field coordinator for the John Birch Society, joins me monthly on the broadcast to get an update from JBS, the New American. Incredible articles produced every day at thenewamerican.com.

[00:54:28] Check it out, the New American magazine. It's incredible. It's online, too. It's just fantastic. All right, Doc, there's Sheriff Richard Mack, and yours truly back in seconds. You are listening to Liberty Roundtable Live, ladies and gentlemen. libertyroundtable.com, nationally syndicated by the Loving Liberty Radio Network, lovingliberty.net. God save the republic.