[00:00:04] Broadcasting live from atop the Rocky Mountains, the crossroads of the West, you are listening to the Liberty Roundtable Radio Talk Show. It's an event at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue that's been never, ever done or seen before. The next question is, have you become a braver angel yet? Braverangels.org.
[00:00:31] Welcome to the show. I'm Sam Bushman. Happy to have you along. I've got a problem with the Pennsylvania Avenue event last weekend, and I mentioned it on the show yesterday. In an event unlike anything ever seen before at Pennsylvania Avenue, you got this Justin, I don't track these guys, so he's a famous guy, I guess, but Gagey or whatever it is, Gagey? Anyway, he basically won in the fight.
[00:01:00] It was, you know, everybody watched from the White House grounds. Thousands of people watched. It was broadcast on TV. It was everywhere. And the reason that I have an issue with it, ladies and gentlemen, is primarily because of the setting. The President of the United States ought not facilitate fights. It sends a bad message to the world, in my humble opinion.
[00:01:26] And it does so in a way that is provocateur, especially when we're in the middle of war that we're trying to sign peace agreements on. You can say, Sam, come on, it's just a little fun. No harm, no foul. Come on, Sam. I get it. But I also get that, you know, hey, if you want to have martial arts and boxing in our society, that's fine. People can choose that. I'm for agency and choice as well.
[00:01:48] But when we talk about the commander in chief of the greatest military army in the world, the greatest military force in the world, it's a little different. When nations start to celebrate blood sport, those nations go south, go look at history. So I don't have a problem necessarily with the fight at all. And I don't really have a problem with boxing or any other sport necessarily.
[00:02:11] But I have a problem with when we promote it in the nation's capital as kind of the key event to celebrate 250 years. Is it 250 years of a fight or 250 years of a peaceful nation where all walks of life get along peacefully? I think it's an open-ended fair question. Our guest will discuss this with me now and more. His name is David Lapp. He's a co-founder of Braver Angels. He's also the director of the Citizens Commission on Immigration.
[00:02:40] His name is David Lapp.
[00:03:11] Yeah. I mean, there's – our nation was founded on conflict. People are – our founding fathers were – well, we, of course, we had the conflict with the mother country. But we also had conflicts among ourselves. I mean, think about the conflict between north and south. Think about just the – you know, all of the normal kind of partisan conflicts that occurred among our – towards those who didn't, et cetera, right? That was a big one.
[00:03:41] But even among the people who fought the American Revolution, there would be big fights. You know, how strong and centralized should the national government be and how much power should our states have? Those were – Those were the conflicts. The anti-federalist papers, right? Right. And now, the trick is that the story of America is a story of learning to disagree well.
[00:04:09] And at our best, I think, understanding that there's – you know, there's – broadly speaking, there's a conservative impulse. There's a liberal impulse. And this has manifested differently in different times. But I think that, fundamentally, America to thrive, we need both temperaments and dispositions. You know, we need conservatives to say, look, let's try to conserve what is best in our tradition.
[00:04:39] And we need the liberal impulse to say, look, here are our flaws. And here's where we need to innovate. Here's where we need to improve. Here's where we need to change and, you know, become the best version of ourselves. So I think, fundamentally, we need conservatives and liberals. I think that's a good thing. And that the art of our politics is learning how to fight well, learning how to disagree well.
[00:05:08] So, you know, what does that look like in terms of should we have a UFC fight on the White House lawn? I'll leave that to others to decide. But for myself, I'm just thinking about how there is an element of our politics in which we want to – we want to disagree well. We don't want to try to defeat each other, defeat the other side. I think that's a harmful impulse.
[00:05:32] But we want to, you know, we want to win elections and we want to learn how to govern ourselves well. And that means having to work together. One of the things we really want to do is realize that, you know, we might – especially me. I'm probably the most guilty of anyone. You know, I think my side's right and I think what I think is right. But I got to realize that there's probably things I haven't thought about. There's probably things that I haven't considered.
[00:05:58] And there's probably points that maybe aren't my important point, but they are somebody else's that have just as much validity as my point of view. And they probably think they're right and they think – and so on. And the reason I bring this up is some of the founding fathers even backed some people who were completely opposite from themselves. And when some of the citizens asked why, the very point Braver Angels brings up is why. We need all sides of this discussion in the debate. We need to be able to discuss this.
[00:06:26] Because Sam can say, I think it's a great thing to have this, you know, fighting, you know, in our society. That's fine. But it shouldn't be on the White House lawn. Somebody else can say, I think it should be on the White House lawn. It's great, Sam. Trump did a celebratory thing. It's kind of like sports, kind of like the Olympics. It brought everybody together. It was awesome. They can have that view and so on. Each person can have their views, articulate them, and maybe, just maybe, our views might slightly become less narrow, David? Yeah.
[00:06:54] I mean, I think about, so I'm the director of the Citizens Commission on Immigration at Braver Angels. And this is a multi-year effort to find, see what common ground, see what agreement we can find on immigration. Bringing together even number of reds and even number of blues in discussions, debates, workshops. Bringing together national leaders who disagree on immigration.
[00:07:19] And, you know, for that, again, you have, the two sides are those who emphasize that we need to be more or less restrictive in how many people and who we allow to come to the country.
[00:07:37] Because we need to be thinking about American citizens who are already here and ensuring that the economy is thriving for them and that they're able to, you know, thrive in their jobs and in their communities.
[00:07:53] And on the other hand, we have people who emphasize that, you know, the innovation and the newness and the excitement that immigrants can bring to a country. And this is, you know, you could argue this has been true for our whole lifetime as a country is that we've always been replenished by immigrants. But we've had to regulate that.
[00:08:19] We've had, you know, there's been periods where we've had a lot of lots of immigration and times where we've been more restrictive. But the point is, you have some people who argue that, well, we need to be really attentive to and restrictive. And other people who say, well, we need to be really welcoming to as many people as possible. And I think that's a healthy tension. It's a healthy conflict to have. It's kind of like in a family. There's always, like, you know, I have, my wife and I, we have six children.
[00:08:44] And there's always a tension between, okay, how active are we in the community and in, you know, things happening outside of our family and outside of the home? And how much do we need to focus on the family and on, you know, being at home and creating a thriving environment for our kids? It's that way with immigration and with conservatives and liberals. So I think that there is a fruitful tension here. Now, that's not to diminish.
[00:09:13] There are very real moral issues at hand that, for instance, you know, when you think about abortion, that comes into stark relief. You have two sides who are making very strong moral cases. Well, or even criminals when it comes to immigration, right? There's a big difference between an immigrant and a criminal, right? Right, right. And so there are very real moral questions at play, and we shouldn't diminish those. The point that we try to make at Braver Angels is we have something called the Braver Angels Way.
[00:09:43] And part of it is that, you know, we speak freely and fully without fear and that we believe that no one is not worth talking to and that we all have blind spots. Everyone is worth talking to and everyone has blind spots, including myself. So that means that if I think, oh, my goodness, this person, the way they're thinking about immigration, you know, is so they just they just they're they're morally bankrupt.
[00:10:08] Well, chances are they're coming at it from a perspective that they think has a strong moral foundation. And I would like to try to understand that that argument before I just dismiss or stereotype. Sure. I've got a couple of things to say. Braver Angels, ladies and gentlemen, has grown into one of the largest grassroots organizations across the country, uniting hearts and minds. And when we say we're united, that doesn't mean that we agree. It just means we agree to disagree agreeably.
[00:10:38] Constitutional track. And we realize that, hey, we can work through this together. We don't need to be enemies. We can remain friends. We'll talk more with David Lapp in seconds. Braverangels.org. Check out their convention coming up next week. It starts. I'll be there. Liberty Roundtable live. Every day, Americans are told to hate each other while the people in power keep winning. But what if there's another path?
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[00:12:32] Still answering freedoms call. A badge of promise. A constitutional track history. All right, ladies and gentlemen, Sheriff Mack's usually on with us on Tuesdays. That's why the liner for Sheriff Richard Mack, he's not with us today. He's traveling on some other broadcasts. It's a crazy summer. We're all traveling and going everywhere, all over the place, ladies and gentlemen. David Lapp with me, though. We're talking about Braver Angels.
[00:12:58] He's the director of the Citizens Commission on Immigration. Braver Angels. Braver Angels.org. David spent the last decade working on bringing people together, helping people understand one another. When I grew up, they told me you had two ears and one mouth. Use them proportionately, Sam. And then I became a talk show host, and that went out the window. But I got to repent. I can do this. I can listen more, right? Braver Angels has grown into one of the largest organizations, grassroots organizations across the country. Yeah, they got partisan divide.
[00:13:28] That's the problem. We want to bring it together, though, with workshops and ideas and discussions. And they're working in every state already, ladies and gentlemen. They're growing fast because people love this concept of we can agree to disagree agreeably. Braver Angels renews the American promise in Philadelphia for the nation's 250, 1776 to 2026. It's their convention. We are not enemies, but friends. We'll get to that quote coming up from Abraham Lincoln as well.
[00:13:57] But a couple of things, David, that I want to bring up to your attention. I wrote an immigration plan, believe it or not, because I just felt like, you know what? I can't get on the radio and just talk and complain and be on one side or the other and not have a plan. People are like, well, what's your plan, Sam? And I'm like, blah, blah. No, I got to come up with one. So I wrote an immigration plan. It's called the Justice and Mercy American Immigration Plan. And the reason it's called Justice and Mercy is because, you know, we think of the Savior, Jesus Christ, and he was all about justice and mercy and tempering those perfectly. And the idea is if you're a criminal, you need hardcore justice.
[00:14:27] Nobody should disagree with that. On the other hand, if you want to have a better life, whether you're here illegally or not, you came here and your goal is to really seek peace and a better life and safety for your wife or your family, your children, your who. How do you blame somebody for that? Right. Or if you came here as maybe a DACA, you know, you came here as a little kid, you know, all you really know is English, maybe a teeny bit of Spanish at best or whatever. Or even if you know two languages, but, hey, your whole home, your adult life or remembered life is pretty much America.
[00:14:56] You know, where do you go? It's your home. It's all you knew. And it's not your fault that you came here however you got here. Right. And so what we need to do is put these people into kind of buckets and then case by case work through those buckets. And the criminals on one end are easy. The people who came here to no fault of their own are easy. And then we just kind of work our way to the middle case by case and say, hey, how do we be honest with justice and mercy? And how do we vet and find out if you're a criminal?
[00:15:23] Look, nobody, even immigrants who are legally here or illegally here, they don't want the criminals here. Many times that's why they left their countries for safety. And so anyway, my plan really kind of relates to all that. And what are your thoughts? Well, I think it's fascinating. You mentioned the justice and mercy plan. You know, there was a – so we have what we call a common ground workshop where you get even number. You've got seven reds, seven blues, and they spend five hours in person. Hearing each other's stories and perspectives.
[00:15:52] What's at the heart of the immigration issue for you? And then seeing what agreement they can find on immigration. And usually they end up with about 20 to 30 unanimous points of agreement in order for it to be considered a point of agreement. Not with the media peddling the divide, they won't. But yes, you're correct. If they get together, huh?
[00:16:11] So I'll tell you – the reason I mention that is because at a common ground workshop in Long Island, New York, one of the values that they had unanimous agreement on was balancing justice and mercy in our immigration system. And then I'll give you a couple examples of what – Let's go. For them, what this looked like in terms of policies that they were able to find agreement on. Okay.
[00:16:34] First was we got to make sure that we're holding employers accountable for hiring undocumented immigrants and instituting what's known as E-Verify for all employers. E-Verify basically verifies that the person is authorized to work in the United States. About half of employers use it now. The idea is they thought these reds and blues, let's make it universal. That's one thing. Second thing. Okay.
[00:17:03] With that in place, let's think about what we can do about the unauthorized immigrants who are here. In many cases who came for many reasons, but in many times we kind of winked and looked the other way as they crossed the border. So absolutely think about that. We have some culpability and responsibility there too, right? I would say we do. And the people in the workshop, what they came up with is they negotiated.
[00:17:31] I mean some people came into the workshop saying, you know what? We need to give everybody who's here as an unauthorized immigrant, we need to give them a path to citizenship. Others came into the workshop saying, everybody who's an illegal immigrant, they need to be deported. Even people who are dreamers. Amazingly, they were able to find agreement on a path to citizenship for people who have been here 10 plus years.
[00:17:57] And also getting the DACA people, giving them a path to making that permanent. So, and then they said secure the border as like a, as a third. So there's like the trilogy of policies there where they felt like they were all able to agree on in terms of, you know, balancing justice and mercy. And the point I want to make there is that, you know, there's some, some of those policies are things that like e-verified holding employers accountable.
[00:18:27] That's something that conservatives tend to emphasize more. Giving a path to citizenship to some of the people who have been here for a long time. That's something that liberals tend to emphasize more. But they found, and secure the border. Amazingly, that's something that both sides were able to really agree on. Despite some objections, but that, that, that they were able to find agreement on. But the point is, you know, they were, it's like in these workshops, it's like a little Congress where ordinary citizens come together to deliberate and to say, yeah, what can we do about this challenge?
[00:18:57] And how could we address it in a good way? And that's, and that's what they came up with. Part of my plan also includes things like this. You know, if you can ensure that you have been here for a while and you don't have a criminal history, that's a huge, in my mind, vote towards the mercy side of the discussion. If you've got an employer that can valid, you know, verify for you. In other words, I know that the e-verify is to verify if somebody's here legally or if they have a right to work or not kind of a thing.
[00:19:26] But I'm talking about verify the other direction where we say, hey, listen, I'm an employer and I've got this illegal working for me. Don't, don't, you got to let me surface this without, you know, calling me a bad guy here or else I won't surface it. I'll just, you got to give me a chance, but I'm going to tell you this immigrant here over here, Juan or whatever his name is, or she, they're a good person. They've been with me for eight years. They're a solid employee. They've built a home. They've got a family. They're investing in America the best way they know how.
[00:19:53] And I will not only vouch for them, but I will make sure that they've got a stability here. I'll sponsor them. And now you're putting together ways to say, hey, they're not a drag on the system. We're vetting them to know they're not a criminal or have a greater belief they're not a criminal. They've got a character witness. They've got all these things up and down the line. Anyway, all I'm saying is there's all kinds of ways that we can surface this. We can do what's called a no-blame autopsy.
[00:20:19] There's a military guy who wrote a book about business, and he calls it a no-blame autopsy. And what he basically says is, listen, when something goes wrong at work, first off, oh, it's called extreme ownership. If I'm going to own it, I can't just blame it on my employee. If something goes wrong, I'll take the blame. It's my fault. It's on my watch, okay? Secondly, then, let's dig into this thing, find out what went wrong and correct it, but let's not blame people, okay? Let's just look at the facts and say, what do we need to do to bring this forward going the right direction, if you will? It's called a no-blame autopsy.
[00:20:47] Anyway, I bring that up because we could do this with immigration. I don't care if we look the other way. I don't care if Congress didn't have great laws. I don't care if the border leak, whatever the case may be. I'm saying at this point, hey, Tina's over here, and she's in no man's land. She's in America, and she doesn't have a way forward or employer A or B, whoever the case, whatever their reference point is.
[00:21:09] And we need to give them a chance to surface this and move forward in productive ways that doesn't place blame, doesn't put people in fear, doesn't divide families, but yet can work towards justice and mercy. There's a way. There is a way. I'm convinced. There is a way. There is a way. There is a way. I'll give you another example. And the example that I gave you from Long Island, that's just one example.
[00:21:32] There have been more than 40 common ground workshops bringing these seven reds and seven blues together across the country. And then, oh, by the way, what happens next after they meet in a common – those people in Long Island, what they did then is they took their points of agreement and met with their local member of Congress, Congressman Tom Suozzi, a Democrat. And they said, hey, here's the conversation we had. Here's where we were able to find agreement.
[00:22:02] This is what the conversation was like. We'd love to hear your thoughts about this. And they had an hour and 45-minute conversation. And we've now had – this is now a regular thing that we're doing where we've engaged in about an even number of Republican and Democratic members of Congress where those reds and blues from the common ground workshop are meeting with their local member of Congress to say, hey, look, we met. We found what we think are some practical ideas for addressing this.
[00:22:31] And we think that you, as our member of Congress, should be doing the same kind of work in Congress to find solutions to this challenge. Ah, what a blessing that is, ladies and gentlemen. David Lapp, my guest. I consider him an American hero. He's one of the co-founders of Braver Angels. And he spent the last decade helping Americans understand that we can work through this. We can find common ground.
[00:22:58] We can stand our ground and find common ground, believe it or not. You don't have to give up your beliefs. An important point that needs to be made, Sam, is that the work of civil discourse is not about compromising your core convictions. It's about speaking freely and fully without fear about your convictions, listening to others and their convictions, and then seeing where the agreement is and seeing – having a better understanding of where we cannot agree.
[00:23:27] But having accurate disagreement is important as well. And as we have accurate disagreement, we start to realize, though, when you lay out the details, instead of just disagreeing and then making it personal or whatever happens, when you document accurate disagreement, you can find ways that you might agree, though. People can look at those details of accurate disagreement and say, hey, you know what? This doesn't work because of that. But this – would you agree to that?
[00:23:56] And it finds ways forward. Some would call it compromise. I might call it civil action for solutions, ladies and gentlemen. They're having their convention, and I'm going. It's going to be in Philadelphia, braverangels.org. It's the 26th convention, ladies and gentlemen. You've got to stand your ground. I'm Sam Bushman. I've got David Lapp with me. He's going to continue. We're going to talk more about immigration because I've got some friends doing a great project David needs to know about.
[00:24:25] We'll do it all in seconds. I'm Sam Bushman. If you're watching and listening to Liberty Roundtable Live, spread the word, share the love, and God save our constitutional republic. But it's worth it when you try. It's worth it when you try.